"I understand the people who say that they can't believe the sex
allegations. They weren't in the room. Neither was I. For those who
don't know, the reason these allegations were published and became
the initial testimonies is that different women, who did not have
any contact with each other, began to tell friends what had happened
to them. Over time, those friends told others. Eventually there were
people who had heard more than one woman's story. These were not
copy-cat stories. Someone contacted all of them and asked them to
write of their ordeals for this forum. Many suspicious ex-disciples
called these women and grilled them, trying to find holes in their
stories, but could not.
If you are one of those who cannot accept that Chinmoy would have a
sex life, do not use that to discount the other posts. Sex can be a
controversial topic and the mere idea of "Chinmoy the
Celibate"
having sex with anyone is repugnant. Disciples and ex-disciples who
still believe he is God find these statements to be blasphemous. But
these stories are not the only posts you should read. Within the
thousands of posts, there are hundreds that tell stories of what
life was like in the centre. Taken together, they add up to a
unified picture of life in a typical cult.
Only those in the room with Chinmoy while he watched them having sex
with each other, or while he had sex with them, can say with
absolute certainty that it happened. Only those who heard him or one
of his agents give a death threat, to themselves or their child or
someone else, know for sure it happened. Only those who doctored
photographs of him "lifting" weights know for sure that the lift was
phony. Only those who were with him when he made racist statements
can verify that he did it. But many people were present when women
were paraded on the stage to be humiliated for their weight. Many
were present when, at Chinmoy's instigation and indeed, command,
one
woman was voted the ugliest "girl" by her "brothers and
sisters".
Many people experienced the humiliation and degradation of being
labeled "impure" and placed in "impurity clubs".
Many were present
when he ridiculed and humiliated disciples, either when they were
present or behind their backs.
The very typical cult tactic of alternating humiliation with praise
was something almost all of us in New York experienced. We just
excused it as something our souls needed. If a disciple came to NY
only for the celebrations and had no personal contact with Chinmoy,
he/she may not have experienced anything negative. He would not have
witnessed Chinmoy telling us that he is above morality and therefore
so are we — that we do not have to obey mankind's laws if
breaking
the law will help Chinmoy's "mission", that we can lie to anyone if
it helps the mission. But there are hundreds of us who were there
and did hear his words. Read their stories. There are too many to
discount. Just because you weren't in the room, it doesn't mean it
didn't happen. Read also about the blackmail, kidnapping, telephone
wire cutting, and other dirty deeds of Chinmoy's organization. It
begins to sound very much like the cults you have read about in the
news, doesn't it? There is a reason: if you were a disciple of
Chinmoy, you were in a cult. You didn't know it and you thought you
were special, a very spiritual person who was hand-picked by the
last and greatest Avatar that ever lived and ever would live.
Disciples of other cult leaders think the same thing.
There are many books and websites that will tell you about cults,
their leaders, and the effects they have on their victims. Read the
signs of what constitutes a cult. Then look at the experiences of
the disciples, of what life was like when there was no escape from
the praise/humiliation cycle, of the punishing schedule of work,
running, meditation, concerts, selfless service, of the disciples
cut off from family, of the threats given by Chinmoy to those who
considered leaving him (cancer, a miserable life in the outer world,
retardation in the next life, thousands of incarnations of living in
misery and darkness). Consider also how the financial resources of
the disciples were either overtly or covertly pried from them,
leaving many with no savings and no way to obtain financial security
in their now advanced stage of life. Understand that the
brainwashing was done over time. Call to mind the claims of Chinmoy
as God Incarnate, higher than any other avatar, being Thomas
Jefferson and Arjuna in previous lives, Alo Devi as the Incarnation
of the Divine Female and having been with Chinmoy since their animal
incarnations as lions/Alo Devi losing her realization and being cast
out, that an old man could lift 7,000 pounds. Think of The Divine
incarnating on earth at this time and sitting around making fun of
some of his disciples, telling them to lie, break society's and the
government's laws, and be cruel to those who "deserved it" because
of their "low consciousness".
If your life in the SCC was happy and you never witnessed any of the
things that the members of the various forums have told about, have
an open mind and read what the other ex-disciples have said about
their experiences. If you would read all the posts, you would come
away with an understanding of what disciple life was like for
hundreds of disciples "lucky" enough to have been around Chinmoy
enough to experience the real Sri Chinmoy Centre, not the life that
is shown to the public or the life experienced by someone who was at
a distance and came only for the celebrations.
If you would do some reading to understand cults and cult
manipulation, you would see shocking similarities between Chinmoy
and all the other fake gurus. Your eyes would begin to open and you
would see things in a different light. You would stop hammering away
on the "did he or didn't he have sex" question. Disciples harp
endlessly on the sex allegations, as if that is the only reason that
hundreds of ex-disciples do not believe he is God. (and by the way,
there are hundreds more who do not post on any forum, yet know him
to be a phony and a user) Chinmoy having sex with some of his
disciples is only an extremely small part of what he has done and
continues to do. He abuses disciples in many other ways. It all adds
up to a manipulative cult leader exploiting sincere seekers. THAT is
the important part, not whether this fraud was or was not celibate
for all these years.
Once you have acquainted yourself with the stories of those who
experienced the real Sri Chinmoy Centre, you will be in a much
better position to believe or disbelieve that Chinmoy, like other
cult leaders, might have had a sex drive and might have wanted to
use the pretty young women who were so devoted to him for those
needs. But please do not read just the three sex testimonies and say
you don't believe he could have had sex. If all you knew was a man
you saw on a throne, on a stage, dressed in satin dhotis, and those
close to him told you he was saintly and holy and God-realized and
had transcended sex, it is understandable that it would be difficult
to imagine that he was fully human. The truth about this man is here
in these thousands of posts. He is not God, he is not even God-like.
He is very flawed human being, a man with intense desires for money,
fame, adulation, sex, and power. He is a man who will do anything to
get what he craves. He is very clever and very manipulative.
Because of recent bad press, he now calls his organization
a "charity" and gives away money very publicly. This goes against
his teachings, or at least his previous teachings. Because of this
Yahoo group, he has threatened death and loss of jobs to those who
have been active on this group. Certain disciples have been heard
bragging that they have a team that works around the clock trying to
hack into the computers of those who worked on this forum. We were
taught that he was above morality, but get real: what would a real
holy person do? What would the divine do? Not the things that I saw
and heard him do while I was a disciple. Not the things he is doing
now in retaliation to those he sees as his enemies.
You can take this revelation of his humanity however you want. Many
have said, and continue to say, that he needs to pay for his crimes.
Others say, move on, get over it. Still others say that our souls
chose this journey. It really doesn't matter. The stories need to be
told. For the teller, it is cleansing and empowering. For the
reader, it is mind opening, and heart opening. It can help all of
his exdisciples be more aware of what happened to them, enable them
to heal, and to eventually move on if that is what is right for
them. If this forum were just about the experiences of three women,
it wouldn't still be here." Sasun Oct 16 2004, 03:01 PM http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sri_Chinmoy_Inspiration/
Here are some real accounts by real people. This, of course, is for people who are interested to know the truth rather than gossip.
And I still can't udnerstand how one can buy such an obvious and ridiculous lie as a "death threat", or "threat of cancer". If such threats were indeed true, how could these gossipers be still alive or free of cancer ?
By the way, there are many celibate people. Celibacy is not such an incredible thing. vava Oct 16 2004, 03:10 PM This is only going to start a fight - I'm closing the topic as a pre-emptive measure.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
Boghos Oct 21 2004,
02:21 PM This topic is being re-opened. I ask that all eventually
involved in this discussion focus entirely on the issue at hand.
Given that the Chinmoy thoughts thread is open it is fair that
those that wish to expression their doubts are allowed to do so.
But I repeat, arguments and not insults, please. Sasun Oct 21
2004, 03:25 PM As far as I know, people have the right to be
presumed innocent until proven guilty. That principle is not
preserved here. I am sure everyone would be upset to be innocent
and accused of several criminal charges.That copy/paste above is a bunch of lies trying to defame an innocent person, the purpose is to hurt the school they have been a member previously. Disgruntled people are always unhappy, what is new? Intolerant, fanatical and bigoted people are unhappy about alternative spiritual practices, that is not new either.
If there really were crimes as described in that post the matter would have been in the hands of the police long time ago. What is the reason the accusers don't come out of the dark and go to the law enforcement bodies? Could it be that they have no facts? Moreover, we don't know who the author is, who the accusers are, who the alleged witnesses are. It is clear that there are no facts to prove any of the allegations, it is pure hearsay to cause doubts.
Typically in such accusations most things said that are attributed to Sri Chinmoy cannot be found in any of his writings, are not heard by any of the disciples, or are taken out of context to cause anger in the uninformed reader. For one thing, if I knew that the accusers are interested to learn the truth, I can easily find several references where Sri Chinmoy does not consider himself neither above nor the equal of Jesus Christ, nor the Supreme God himself. This lie is aimed at inciting anger in Christians.
There are many other things that can be easily exposed as pure lies if one has read a little from Sri Chinmoy's actual writings.
I believe anyone who goes as far as to copy/paste a provocative statement full of criminal and other accusations has the responsibility to also bring some facts, or else his goal is to defame an innocent person much like the unknown author of the post. I don't see any facts here, only talk and an attempt to make readers believe in quite disturbing allegations. But I myself have seen and experienced some facts about Sri Chinmoy and his disciples. As far as I am sane I will believe what my eyes can see rather than believe in hearsay. Domino Oct 22 2004, 12:11 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 21 2004, 03:25 PM) If there really were crimes as described in that post the matter would have been in the hands of the police long time ago. What is the reason the accusers don't come out of the dark and go to the law enforcement bodies? Could it be that they have no facts? Moreover, we don't know who the author is, who the accusers are, who the alleged witnesses are. It is clear that there are no facts to prove any of the allegations, it is pure hearsay to cause doubts.
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Again, you show here that you have no knowledge of the "guilt feeling" shared by those having been raped by someone. From those that have been raped by a friend or people they know, only the slightest fraction report it. People can still think of a certain group that I don't need to name, where the Guru took himself for Jesus, and how it ended up, not a single report by any woman member of any rapes, yet ex-disciples were reporting rapes after rapes... we know how all ended up... here in Quebec, Vava remember I'm sure two cases as well, after the event, years, and years, and years later it was reported. It is very easy to manipulate the "innocent until proven guilty" principle in your advantages. But sorry to say that any unbiased individual will not hold this anymore.
Let make few points here for the others.
Two of Chinmoy photographers have testified having manipulated his pictures, one of those is a world reknown artist.
A musician left the group because of Chinmoys advances to his wife, yet Sasun suggested that the author of the work that interviewed the musician has lied.
There are thousands of testemonies, Sasun suggest that they have been all made up... people must hate Chinmoy to a point to forge thousands of testomonies for an insignificant group. If one had to draw a statistic of testemonies vs members of the group(Note here, since Sasun has called me a liar because I have used the term disciple and separated those with Chinmoys residing building with the rest of the followers around the world, I therefore decided to generalise the group and call those "followers" as I have no interest to again enter in an ethimological war) he'll find the disproportion compared to any other groups.
A woman in the group, that was considered by Chinmoy his female version, a "hight sool" and has been later ridiculised by Chinmoy and made fun of her, and Chinmoy asked the followers to not follow her anymore. She was considered impure. Again, Chinmoy didn't like competition, and dismiss the purness of a sool when he feel competition.
Chinmoy disciples meditate on Chinmoy picture... there are many ex-dicsiple that have lost everything they had. First they left their families and friends for the group, and later when they leave the group, when they feel guilt and being responsable of what happened as well afraid of Chinmoys curses, according to Sasun if they were victims they should report. Whom in those conditions would support, those people have offered all they had to the group, many have left their jobs for the group, they have lost all friends, families and ressources for the group, and finaly they end up alone, many have even attempted suicide.
Sasun tells that the testimonies were fabricated, I have to conclude here that Sasun biases doesn't permit him to analyse those testimonies, because it isn't that easy to fabricate such testimonies, to the contrary many of them, if they were fabricated, the author would be the best scenarist in the world and won't waste his time writing such things he would do millions producing films in Hollywood.
QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 21 2004, 03:25 PM) Typically in such accusations most things said that are attributed to Sri Chinmoy cannot be found in any of his writings, are not heard by any of the disciples, or are taken out of context to cause anger in the uninformed reader. For one thing, if I knew that the accusers are interested to learn the truth, I can easily find several references where Sri Chinmoy does not consider himself neither above nor the equal of Jesus Christ, nor the Supreme God himself. This lie is aimed at inciting anger in Christians. [snapback]117882[/snapback]
You must be brainwashed to say such a thing. Why a criminal would write his criminal offenses in writings where everyone could read them? As for disciples, there are many that participate in one of the forums, and it is frequent that they ask how to hide their IP because the're afraid that Chinmoy will find out, and many ex-members as well... so your claim is untrue. As for your claim that Chinmoy doesn't consider himself equal or above Jesus. Isen't it true that his disciples meditate on his picture? Yes? or No?
QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 21 2004, 03:25 PM) There are many other things that can be easily exposed as pure lies if one has read a little from Sri Chinmoy's actual writings. [snapback]117882[/snapback]
Again this is wrong and a paradox. If those claims about Chinmoy are true, that would make his writings contradictory from his actions, so his writings would be considered lies according to his actions, so how could you base yourself on his writings to reject his actions?
QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 21 2004, 03:25 PM) I believe anyone who goes as far as to copy/paste a provocative statement full of criminal and other accusations has the responsibility to also bring some facts, or else his goal is to defame an innocent person much like the unknown author of the post. I don't see any facts here, only talk and an attempt to make readers believe in quite disturbing allegations. But I myself have seen and experienced some facts about Sri Chinmoy and his disciples. As far as I am sane I will believe what my eyes can see rather than believe in hearsay.
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I call fact, the fact that a world reknown artist has admited having forged pictures because Chinmoy asked him, another photographer as well... I consider as fact the fact that the second in the group that was considered as a pure sool has later been dismissed, I call fact the dozens of dozens of testimonies for a such a small group, you may be too brainwashed to see why common sense tells Chinmoy is a hoax, but those not being brainwashed like you sees that what I have presented were true.
Another note, I have skipped many other points, like the fact that Chinmoy has a couple of the best lawyers that talks in his place and that he threaten legaly and physically anyone that accuses him or his group of anything, that as well he has threatned sites accusing him and even spammed the web and the searchengines(I have provided a fact in the past) etc... etc... etc...
I have been well trained in those past years to smell what is a fact and what is a hoax, some times we can't tell... this time we can.
Another point, I find funny that Sasun accuse other of copy pasting, and from where what he post comes from if not from the web? So for him it is OK to copypast Chinmoy to support him, but not accuse him... like a Turk that would dismiss sites demonstrating the genocide and accept those denying it.
Sasun support Chinmoy, I support the victims, the women having been rapped, those members having been abused. There must be laws protecting vulnerable people entering in sects, because obviously most of them were vulnerable, it takes easily brainwashable(vulnerable) people to enter in those sects. Sasun Oct 22 2004, 01:31 PM QUOTE people must hate Chinmoy to a point to forge thousands of testomonies
Yes indeed, they do hate a lot, although there are no thousands of testimonies but thousands of repetitions and references, and internet testimonies are not valid to prove in the court. However, if you are going to do anything with internet testimonies, then I give you many-many other internet testimonies in the above link. Why not give equal weight to internet testimonies?
1) Crimes are proven in real life with actual people with identities, not on the internet.
2) Crimes are proven by judges, not internet personas.
3) Let's not confuse crimes and abuses with alternative spiritual practices and convictions. A person can meditate on his masters photo, that is not an abuse.
QUOTE Sasun support Chinmoy, I support the victims, the women having been rapped, those members having been abused. There must be laws protecting vulnerable people entering in sects, because obviously most of them were vulnerable, it takes easily brainwashable(vulnerable) people to enter in those sects.
At least I know that the person I am supporting is a real person, I know the reasons why I am supporting and have real life experience, have read many of his books, listened to his music, seen his art, etc... You don't know any of the people you are supporting. You don't even know if the alleged raped are really women, or even they have been disciples in the past. Feel free to have faith in the words of whoever, but your beliefs are not proof of anything.
There are laws to protect everyone against abuse, let the alleged abused use those laws. Sasun Oct 22 2004, 01:38 PM QUOTE(Domino @ Oct 22 2004, 02:11 PM) Two of Chinmoy photographers have testified having manipulated his pictures, one of those is a world reknown artist.
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I have seen Sri Chinmoy lifting very heavy weights, repeatedly, various ways, hour after hour. Commonsense tells me to believe in my eyes, rather than photographers. Next time I will make sure to take some photoes. Stormig Oct 22 2004, 02:30 PM Why would anyone care to "prove" Chinmoy's innocence any more than that of the next door neighbour's? There are courts. Exactly the point. Domino Oct 22 2004, 02:39 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 01:31 PM) Yes indeed, they do hate a lot, although there are no thousands of testimonies but thousands of repetitions and references, and internet testimonies are not valid to prove in the court. However, if you are going to do anything with internet testimonies, then I give you many-many other internet testimonies in the above link. Why not give equal weight to internet testimonies?
Again, you don't seem to understand the nuance. You can post testimonies, but as far as those testimonies can go is for a person to say how happy he/she was in Chinmoys group as a person... you can not use them to reject testimonies of people that report abuses. It is like a diplomats during WWI that have witnessed nothing, the fact that they have witnessed nothing does not serve to tell that those that have witnessed something on another time or another area was lying. Beside that, some of the testimonies have full name attached to them, one of the sites has been build by a victim of chinmoy, and one of the testimonies that contained the full name, the author of the testimonies was threatned by Chinmoy and has asked to remove the testimonies, something that has been done. Later the testimony has been reposted under an alias, and many names were left anonymous. Usually a typical testimony found on the internet could not be used in court of law, but when you have thousands of posts in the web, this behavour can on the other hand be used as evidence in court of law. Because there is no way that a small group like Chinmoys one would be responsable of thousands and thousands of negative comments if some of them weren't true... even the less worst of the abuses is enough to take off all the credibility that Chinmoy has.
You talk about of repetitions and references, this doesn't change the fact that they were testimonies.
QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 01:31 PM) 1) Crimes are proven in real life with actual people with identities, not on the internet.
First of all, the word prove in law means beyond any resonable dought. Secondly, in some cases of abuses the "identity"requirement doesn't apply for people being afraid of the abuser... in such cases when there are many abused, in some circustances a victims identity can be protected. As for the internet, as I said, I am not using the testimonies as evidences to support my point, but rather the fact that such a small insignificant group get thousands of posts, testimonies, and the behavour of the accused of spamming the search engines and trying to shut sites as well as in their forum deleting posts frequently. If you go at the ex-disciple site, you will see that some times there are good reviews of Chinmoy, and they are not deleted, but the same can not be said from Chinmoys sponsered forum.
QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 01:31 PM) 2) Crimes are proven by judges, not internet personas.
This is highly innacurate, anyone can "prove"(again using the legal term of this word) in an investigation using the basic scientific methodology by accumulating evidences to the point that what they are trying to demonstrate something that has occured is beyond any resonable dought. A judge does not "prove" but rather accept the theses of one party against the other based on the evidences submitted... it is to those accumulating the evidences that the charge of "proving" is given. I can say that I have "proven" that the genocide happened because I have brought evidences that show beyond any resonable dought that my theses is accurate, and my profession is not a judge(even if by judging I become the judge). Another point, not everytime the last decision is made by a judge, many times the final decision is under the hand of a selected jury, but in both cases what you claim is untrue.
QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 01:31 PM) 3) Let's not confuse crimes and abuses with alternative spiritual practices and convictions. A person can meditate on his masters photo, that is not an abuse.
So you do admit that his disciples meditate on his picture. In the past I have shown a writing by him specificaly noting how to meditate, he tells people to place a picture of their spiritual leader(and gives the example of Jesus)... and consider himself the spirtual leader of his disciples... this is like saying in logical language.
A = B, B = C, therefore, A = C. Chinmoy ask people to place the picture of their spiritual leader to pray on, Chinmoy is the spiritual leader of his disciples(that's what a Guru is for his followers). So what Chinmoy ask to his disciples is to meditate on his picture. He as well by this same indirect logic place himself as an Avatar, something that you still deny. So yes! It is an abuses of power.
QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 01:31 PM) At least I know that the person I am supporting is a real person, I know the reasons why I am supporting and have real life experience, have read many of his books, listened to his music, seen his art, etc... You don't know any of the people you are supporting. You don't even know if the alleged raped are really women, or even they have been disciples in the past. Feel free to have faith in the words of whoever, but your beliefs are not proof of anything.
You are shouting on your own feets by making such statments Sasun. Because it is specifically because you are close to those you are protecting that you are biased and I am not. I don't know neither of them, like a Jury before the presentation of a cases don't know neither of both parties, if one member of a jury was to be close to one of the parties a jury would be dissolved if it were to be known. The same goes for a judge. You presented Chinmoy on this board, I didn't knew of him, I learned from you, later when I have decided to read more I came accross the other side. I had no reason to be more biased in one side against the other. I've read the testemonies, I've read other stuff like picture manipulations etc... and believe me, I know when a testemonies smeel truth, and when you read a lot like that as well as other stuff even accepted by Chinmoy side, like the second most "pure" sool, being called impure and being ridiculised etc... or Chinmoy behavour that is the behavour of the Turks trying to silence me. There was just too much elements, and other indirect references by Chinmoy that makes him pass as an Avatar(a god under a flesh form, which is how he compares himself with Jesus).
On the other hand, you are brainwashed by Chinmoy, you are too close from the cult, you are biased to take the side of one against another... like a Turk that is already baised by being a Turk to recognise a crime done by their forfathers.
QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 01:31 PM) There are laws to protect everyone against abuse, let the alleged abused use those laws.
If they were so protected, how come sects claims the life of many that commit mass suicide etc... oh yeh, they are VERY protected. Domino Oct 22 2004, 02:45 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 01:38 PM) I have seen Sri Chinmoy lifting very heavy weights, repeatedly, various ways, hour after hour. Commonsense tells me to believe in my eyes, rather than photographers. Next time I will make sure to take some photoes.
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There are heavy weights, and very heavey weights... I can try to lift a thousand Kg, and try 50 kg, I may have success for the 50 kg on stage and not for 1000 kg, and one of my followers will claim having seen me lift heavy weights, this won't tell anything about the 1000 kg. Beside that, collective hallucinations are known phenomena, by psychological manipulation you can make people believe nearly everything. The fact of the matter is that the photographers of the disputed lifts have admitted having manipulated the pictures because Chinmoy the saint sool, and honest avatar asked it. This, like it or not. Sasun Oct 22 2004, 02:57 PM I never heard that someone's cirminal charges are proved on the internet. There is no such thing as interent court. That simply is not acceptable for well known reasons.
In the East, there are gurus or spiritual teachers who have disciples. It is not uncommon that a disciple uses a picture or a statue of his teacher for meditation or devotional expression. This is part of spirituality, whether you accept it or not, that's the way it is. In Christianity many Christians use pictures of angels, various saints who were historical persons, popes pictures, etc. to meditate. That does not mean that any of these are higher or equal to Jesus.
On the other hand, someone may think that his master is higher than Jesus - that is a matter of person's faith.
As to Sri Chinmoy, he has one photograph taken many years ago when he was in a very high state of Samadhi. That is the picture that his disciples use to meditate on becuase it created positive vibrations and helps the disciple to get closer to that high state of consciousness. It has nothing to do with what Jesus is. Sri Chinmoy does not consider himself higher or equal to Jesus, he says that explicitly. Some people are trying hard to prove the opposite. Believe in whatever you wish. Sasun Oct 22 2004, 02:59 PM QUOTE(Domino @ Oct 22 2004, 04:45 PM) There are heavy weights, and very heavey weights... I can try to lift a thousand Kg, and try 50 kg, I may have success for the 50 kg on stage and not for 1000 kg, and one of my followers will claim having seen me lift heavy weights, this won't tell anything about the 1000 kg. Beside that, collective hallucinations are known phenomena, by psychological manipulation you can make people believe nearly everything. The fact of the matter is that the photographers of the disputed lifts have admitted having manipulated the pictures because Chinmoy the saint sool, and honest avatar asked it. This, like it or not.
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Believe in whatever you need to believe again. There are many photos of many not very heavy but quite heavy lifts, hundreds of pounds dumbells is still unbelievable for an old man, but I have seen them. And there are also testimonies of people who were present to 5000 or 7000 pound lifts. I believe.
I also believe that Jesus walked on the water and did all the miracles that we read in the Bible. Do you believe? If not, do you think that Jesus was a hoax? Stormig Oct 22 2004, 03:03 PM Maybe I should "experience" Chinmoy after all. Domino Oct 22 2004, 03:15 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 02:57 PM) I never heard that someone's cirminal charges are proved on the internet. There is no such thing as interent court. That simply is not acceptable for well known reasons.
Oh no, and that was not what I was doing for 5 years by documenting the Armenian genocide I guess.
QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 02:57 PM) In the East, there are gurus or spiritual teachers who have disciples. It is not uncommon that a disciple uses a picture or a statue of his teacher for meditation or devotional expression. This is part of spirituality, whether you accept it or not, that's the way it is. In Christianity many Christians use pictures of angels, various saints who were historical persons, popes pictures, etc. to meditate. That does not mean that any of these are higher or equal to Jesus.
Again, the logic test, A=B, B=C, then A=C. Chinmoy discribes how to recognise an Avatar, and describes himselfs with the definitions he uses to qualify an Avatar... in a logical test we can affirm he places himself as an Avatar, the reason why his disciples consider him as an Avatar. An Avatar is a flesh incarnate god, the same thing he consider Jesus to be. You can try to twist that, but facts are facts. Beside that, you refer to angels and other characters... I know of no angel, do you? and even less, I know of no angel telling people to pray on their spiritual Guru and passing as a spiritual Guru. Do you? You are comparing apple with oranges. and why are you refering to other examples, two wrong doesn't make something right.
QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 02:57 PM) On the other hand, someone may think that his master is higher than Jesus - that is a matter of person's faith.
Do you?
QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 02:57 PM) Sri Chinmoy does not consider himself higher or equal to Jesus, he says that explicitly.
Where? Domino Oct 22 2004, 03:18 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 02:59 PM) Believe in whatever you need to believe again. There are many photos of many not very heavy but quite heavy lifts, hundreds of pounds dumbells is still unbelievable for an old man, but I have seen them. And there are also testimonies of people who were present to 5000 or 7000 pound lifts. I believe.
I also believe that Jesus walked on the water and did all the miracles that we read in the Bible. Do you believe? If not, do you think that Jesus was a hoax?
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Again, you ignore the power of collective halucinations... you want evidences, clear evidences to "prove" Chinmoy guilt, on the other hand you ask me to believe the word of biased witnesses on the middle of a mass psychotic hallucination. Photographs may have been objectif evidences... BUT THEY'RE FORGED FOR MULTIVERSES SAKE. Sasun Oct 22 2004, 03:29 PM QUOTE(Domino @ Oct 22 2004, 05:15 PM) Oh no, and that was not what I was doing for 5 years by documenting the Armenian genocide I guess.
Genocide accounts were not on the internet, they were real accounts. I am not talking about the medium where one can post proofs, but the materials, testimonies, evidences that are used. Historical facts are real facts registered in historical documents by real people, not internet usernames.
QUOTE Again, the logic test, A=B, B=C, then A=C. Chinmoy discribes how to recognise an Avatar, and describes himselfs with the definitions he uses to qualify an Avatar... in a logical test we can affirm he places himself as an Avatar, the reason why his disciples consider him as an Avatar. An Avatar is a flesh incarnate god, the same thing he consider Jesus to be. You can try to twist that, but facts are facts. Beside that, you refer to angels and other characters... I know of no angel, do you? and even less, I know of no angel telling people to pray on their spiritual Guru and passing as a spiritual Guru. Do you? You are comparing apple with oranges. and why are you refering to other examples, two wrong doesn't make something right.
Do you?
You don't know what you are talking about.
Once again, a Christian prays to a saint, a historical figure, but a saint is not the equal or above Jesus in his mind.
QUOTE Where?
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In his writings which can be found either in his paper books published, or the internet copies on his official website http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/. I remember reading, a Christian asked about Jesus and himself he said he can be thought as the secretary of Jesus. Or an expression something like "who am I talk about Jesus?" (quoting from memory). Sasun Oct 22 2004, 03:33 PM QUOTE(Domino @ Oct 22 2004, 05:18 PM) Again, you ignore the power of collective halucinations... you want evidences, clear evidences to "prove" Chinmoy guilt, on the other hand you ask me to believe the word of biased witnesses on the middle of a mass psychotic hallucination. Photographs may have been objectif evidences... BUT THEY'RE FORGED FOR MULTIVERSES SAKE.
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Mass halucination??? This speaks of your attitude only, there is no logic or validity. No objective person will use it for criminal charges. Any judge would only laugh at such an argument. Ludwig9 Oct 22 2004, 03:55 PM All I can say is WOW!!!, I knew that there was something fishy with the guy besides what he teachs. But for so many people to come out and speak against him is overwhelming. Sasun Oct 22 2004, 04:13 PM QUOTE(Ludwig9 @ Oct 22 2004, 05:55 PM) All I can say is WOW!!!, I knew that there was something fishy with the guy besides what he teachs. But for so many people to come out and speak against him is overwhelming.
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That's what people said when they executed Jesus. Domino Oct 22 2004, 06:15 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 03:29 PM) Genocide accounts were not on the internet, they were real accounts. I am not talking about the medium where one can post proofs, but the materials, testimonies, evidences that are used. Historical facts are real facts registered in historical documents by real people, not internet usernames.
You show again that you have even not bothered studying the accusations. There are REAL NAMES, REAL PEOPLE, I have given the example of the two photographers, one of them is a world reknown artist. Ian Johnson is as well a real name, that answered journalists etc... his member name as Syandan is known among the disciples, and no one yet tried to claim he does not exist. I suggest you to read his testimonials. Many other known under their member names, and them also, their existance has NOT been denied, like Tiyasa, Mallika, etc... of or Ullas that personally spoke with 3 women that made their accusations officials before being threatened by your saint Chinmoy.
Oh Sasun, BTW, why Chinmoy forbits disciples to view this site?
http://www.chinmoycult.com
QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 03:29 PM) You don't know what you are talking about.
Once again, a Christian prays to a saint, a historical figure, but a saint is not the equal or above Jesus in his mind.
Of course I don't, this is your favoured argument when you have nothing better to say. Beside that, faith in Jesus is a Faith, you can not use a faith to support another faith and suppose that would be a logical evidence.
QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 03:29 PM) In his writings which can be found either in his paper books published, or the internet copies on his official website http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/. I remember reading, a Christian asked about Jesus and himself he said he can be thought as the secretary of Jesus. Or an expression something like "who am I talk about Jesus?" (quoting from memory).
Show me where. Domino Oct 22 2004, 06:19 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 03:33 PM) Mass halucination??? This speaks of your attitude only, there is no logic or validity. No objective person will use it for criminal charges. Any judge would only laugh at such an argument.
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To the contrary, mass hallucination and mass psychosis is a well known phenomenon... we know how well it is easy to make believe someone that something happened in a scene of fidels. I can make believe in a scene of devotees that believe in me that I have moved an object... I will ask them to watch the object, fixing the object etc... The judge will ask if there are any objective evidences that Chinmoy lifted those weights... Chinmoy side will show the pictures, but the photographers admit having forged the pictures.
The question is, if he obviously lifted those weights, why asking to manipulate the pictures... would a pure sool ask someone to mislead others by forging? Domino Oct 22 2004, 06:20 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 22 2004, 04:13 PM) That's what people said when they executed Jesus.
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Again, you are using a Faith to support another. How would this argument be percieved by someone that does not believe in Jesus? Domino Oct 22 2004, 06:33 PM This article give many examples from many ex-disciples.
Article from Brazilian newspaper "Gazetta de Povo" (translated from Portugese)
The Dark Side of "Transcendence"
Followers accuse religious leader Sri Chinmoy, who heads sect with a
presence in Curitiba, of sexual abuse.
By Romaen de Bruns Neto.
Arriving in Curitiba by plane one can encounter a plaque in the
entrance of Alfonso Pena Airport that carries the words "Sri Chinmoy
Peace Blossom" (Flower of Peace SRI CHINMOY – pronounced Xiri Tin-
mói). The text states that the life of this spiritual leader inspired
a programme that includes more than a thousand places, geographical
and historical points of interest transformed into designations for
world peace. What the plaque doesn't say is that there is a growing
number of ex-followers of the spiritual leader who allege having
suffered physiological and sexual abuse on the part of a man who they
considered an avatar. (Divine incarnation according to the Hindu
tradition.)
The name of Chinmoy also appears on a plaque in Ponte Rio-Niteroi. In
addition the then Minister of Sports & Tourism, Rafaele Greca, signed
a declaration making Brazil a Peace Nation. A similar document was
signed by the delegate Marcos Isfer, then the secretary of the
governor of Prefecture Cassio Traniguchi, including Curitiba in this
programme.
But who is Sri Chinmoy? You can learn more about this 70 year old
Indian man—who up to now has visited Curitiba and played his music
and mantras on Canal da Musi here in January of 2000 – going to one
of various workshops and lectures offered free in places like the
State University of Paraná (UFPR), in Curitiba, at ISP, in São
Paulo, and at UFRJ in Rio de Janeiro. On these occasions, devoted
followers of the spiritual master teach his philosophy of "self-
transcendence" as well as concentration and meditation techniques,
with the object of developing peace, harmony and spiritual growth.
Once again, nothing is said about the growing number of accusations
against Chinmoy. During the past weeks the Gazeta do Povo got in
contact with ex-devotees who agreed that their stories be revealed.
There is the case of the 40 year-old North American Anne Carlton, who
entered the Sri Chinmoy Meditation Centre in 1981, In the group she
received the name Phulela, a sort of "spiritual name" in Bengali (the
master' s mother tongue). Anne related that she wished to join the
centre as she had a very positive impression of the followers.
Moreover, she said, she was inspired by the writings and music of
Chinmoy as well as by the meditation.
A "Blessing"
After 10 years of strict daily discipline, which included 6 a.m.
meditation, playing of mantras and songs, running several kilometers
and "selfless service" (work without pay), Anne was called by Chinmoy
to a private interview. The leader asked Phulela if she would like to
receive a "special blessing", to which she agreed. Next, he asked
that she take her clothes off and then they had sexual relations. "I
was really in his control and for this reason I didn't know who to
ask for help. He told me that I should never tell anyone. He revealed
that what he had done for me was a "blessing".
Celibacy, according to Chinmoy's philosophy is a sine quo non)
condition (indispensable) for spiritual illumination. Anne said that
she had doubts about the master's justification and that she thought
something was wrong, but was afraid to disappoint him. Thus, the sex
sessions continued. She said she later realized that many other
female disciples were sexually involved with the master. She also
affirmed that she was obliged to have sexual relations with other
women supervised by Chinmoy who gave guidance on what they should
do. "I believed the Guru when he said we should obey him and that,
otherwise we would suffer spiritually, that our soul would punish us.
Because of my fear I continued to work for six years at Annam Brahma
(A Chinmoy restaurant in Queens, a borough of New York where he
lives.) I suffered a lot during those years as the work was very
hard. It was 90 hours a week for only US$50 a week" said Anne.
An ex-devotee, who has been through various therapy sessions after
leaving the sect said she is recuperating form the trauma day by
day. "I am gaining will power, making decisions and finding new faith
and new ways to feel the light of God. The Sri Chinmoy centre was
very confined and now I feel comfortable speaking openly and making
new friends from different faiths", she told me.
Unconditional Devotion
Another ex-devotee, a Puerto Rican by the name of Rupavati when she
was part of the group, tells that once she was contacted by one of
Chinmoy's closest disciples (a kind of secretary of his). She was
asked if she would be willing to do something for the Guru even if it
were against her principles. From then on, Rupavati tells that she
went on to receive special attention from Chinmoy and other
disciples. About 3 years ago, on a trip to the orient, Rupavati was
called at daybreak for a private interview with Chinmoy. The
secretary said that the Guru wished that both should have sex in
order to resolve their problems relating to sexual energy. "I was
shocked. I started to cry", she said.
According to her, Chinmoy, from the next room, said that Rupavati
didn't love him enough to make that sacrifice, that she should
leave. "I was heart broken, because I loved him and believed in him.
For this reason I agreed. I cried and I felt dirty. In the end,
Chinmoy came to me and said that was not sex, it was an opportunity
to make enormous spiritual progress. I was sick for the rest of the
trip, nervous and I had nightmares. I was afraid that he would call
me again."
The Gazetta do Povo also spoke with an ex-disciple who had led a
meditation centre in San Francisco (US) for more than 20 years. She
told a story similar to the above.
A Brazilian ex-follower, Psychologist Cristina Fusco 25 years old,
shared a room with the Puerto Rican Rupavati on the trip when she
said she had sex with Chinmoy and confirmed the nervous state of her
colleague." I understood what was happening and have no doubt that
these women suffered sexual abuse. In Rupavati's case, I was
practically a witness and I know that I was also being prepared to
participate in the sexual club", she guaranteed.
Educated at USP, (University of São Paulo) Cristina met the Chinmoy
group at a talk on the campus of the university. This happened in
1996 when she was 18 years old. "Initially it was a very positive
experience. But the more contact with the group grew, I began to
suffer, because I understood that there were a lot of lies. It never
occurred to me and as I was happy for a while and then everything
fell apart."
The journalist Adriano Quadrado, 31 years old, was also searching for
a spiritual path in 1998, when there was a talk about meditation at
USP. "Meditation and discipline produce a rather noticeable effect",
he affirmed.
Adriano remembers that he always had doubts about
Chinmoy's "realization". But as a group everyone convinced them
selves that nothing was wrong. Doubt was regarded as a defect, an
impurity. As you had good experiences with the meditation, you
thought the error was with you. Moreover, the rules – celibacy, not
being able to go to the cinema, not talking to ex-disciples – are
presented little at a time and you try to convince yourself that they
are justified, especially as the goal is illumination."
Adriano discovered a forum of ex-followers on the Internet, which
carried testimonies that convinced him to leave. By the way, surfing
the web is also forbidden the disciples. "Chinmoy is a kind of Hitler
of the spiritual world. He got to the point of pressuring Yahoo to
dismantle the democratic forum set up by the Internet surfing ex-
disciples" stated the journalist.
The list of ex-devotees disillusioned with the Chinmoy group includes
famous personalities like the guitarist Carlos Santana, a disciple
for eight years during the 70's. In a recent interview for the
Rolling Stone magazine, the musician said that the experience was
like a kind of spiritual Marine Corps (combatants of the North
American marines). "If somebody told you that, without him, you were
going to drown in a sea of darkness, you've going to sound like an
idiot. To believe this is to deceive yourself", stated Santana to
Rolling Stone.
The Gazeta do Povo contacted two followers of Chinmoy in Brazil,
group leaders in Curitiba and São Paulo. They declined to give
interviews.
The Neurotic, The Psychotic and the Perverse
The reporter from the Gazeta do Povo, talking with followers of Sri
Chinmoy and Sai Baba, noticed 3 reactions to accusations of sexual
abuse: the devotee doesn't believe they are true; doesn't even want
to hear the stories; or admits that the accusations are true, but
that the master being "one with the Divine", can do whatever he
likes, as his will is God's Will.
The professor at UFPR Victor Eduardo Silva Bento, doctor of
psychoanalysis for the University of Paris, explained that these
reactions correspond to the three psychic structures (make ups) of
Freudian man. According to Bento, the one saying "It's not possible
that it is true", is the neurotic; the one who doesn't want to hear
is psychotic; and the one who justifies the actions as the master's
right is perverse." The perverse is the one who tries to de-rail
reality. He admits that it is true, but a legitimate truth by another
law, the master is a god", he said.
For Bento, there are parallels among love relationships and with a
person joining a sect. "People fall in love with an ideal. When a
love relationship deepens, people discover the object of love is not
our ideal. The same occurs in a sect. After a certain mileage, the
person is a bait."
According to Anthropologist Carlos Balhana, of the Dept. of
Anthropology at UFPR, socializing in a sect happens in two
ways "First the individual turns his back on the community. Then he
returns to society as a teacher, to get new adepts", he
explained. "It doesn't matter which group, there is the mechanism of
dominating others. It's ironic that the devotee who is saving the
world, would be more useful to society if he were not in a sect.
Public Watch-Dog formed by Idealists.
Daniel Shaw, an ex-devotee of Siddha Yoga (which was the target of
documented allegations of sexual abuse by The New Yorker in 1994)
said that a sect is lead by a person who proclaims to have attained
human perfection or union with the divine, and who says, therefore
that he is above moral and social restrictions. A behavior that in
any other context would be considered amoral, if not psychotic, is
idealized by devotees as a mark of the leader's illumination".
The question most frequently asked of ex-members of cults is "How did
you get into this?" According to Shaw, the majority of people who
join a sect were not looking to be controlled or psychologically
exploited. One reason why cults are successful is that they have
mastered well the art of seduction. They explore the unknown
(mysterious) and power, promising salvation, they offer noble
ideals", says Shaw. The target of cults, are idealistic people,
frequently recruited on a University campus. "The method of
recruiting", continues Shaw "usually happens in a sophisticated
manner, in persuasive seminars with accredited lecturers. The
lecturers and members present various forms of disinformation about
the leaders". vava Oct 22 2004, 11:22 PM QUOTE(Stormig @ Oct 22 2004, 04:30 PM) Why would anyone care to "prove" Chinmoy's innocence any more than that of the next door neighbour's? There are courts. Exactly the point.
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First a disclaimer:
I'm not reading this thread - at least not entirely. I do not hold a stake in either camp concerning the chimnroy franchise, nor am I truly interested. But I see a quote like the one above - and I can't help but think that it should be the opposite way around:
the courts are there to prove guilt, not innoncence. If there have been illegalities, rapes and/or other crimes punishable by law, then let charges be laid, and the offender tried in a court of law. If not, then all of this evidence is nothing short of heresy (however unfortunate that may seem to some of you.) I'm not too sure about the technical legalities - maybe we should ask Gams - but as I understand it, dishonesty and charlantism aren't criminal acts (in and of themselves). Stormig Oct 23 2004, 01:39 AM QUOTE(vava @ Oct 23 2004, 05:22 AM) First a disclaimer:
I'm not reading this thread - at least not entirely. I do not hold a stake in either camp concerning the chimnroy franchise, nor am I truly interested. But I see a quote like the one above - and I can't help but think that it should be the opposite way around:
the courts are there to prove guilt, not innoncence. If there have been illegalities, rapes and/or other crimes punishable by law, then let charges be laid, and the offender tried in a court of law. If not, then all of this evidence is nothing short of heresy (however unfortunate that may seem to some of you.) I'm not too sure about the technical legalities - maybe we should ask Gams - but as I understand it, dishonesty and charlantism aren't criminal acts (in and of themselves).
[snapback]118047[/snapback]
Yes, difference between Roman law and modern. But today if they can't prove guilt, they're let go. Sometimes, even, circumstances/evidences have them actually short of proven innocent.
Either way, I couldn't care less about this Chi-boo-boo person. Innocent or guilty, none of my concern, really. Like you said (and I said), there is the court.
Now, a person like Tim McVeigh or some towelhead trying to blow up the Big Ben or Eiffel Tower or a kook that uses sarin gas somewhere in Japan, yeah, that catches my attention. As for all these online yaps, they should serve as advice for caution when approaching these people. It's not difficult to believe how aggressive they can be, if even you look at door-to-door salespersons. And in fact, as they say, there is at least a bit of truth to everything. Domino Oct 23 2004, 09:11 AM QUOTE(vava @ Oct 22 2004, 11:22 PM) If there have been illegalities, rapes and/or other crimes punishable by law, then let charges be laid, and the offender tried in a court of law. If not, then all of this evidence is nothing short of heresy (however unfortunate that may seem to some of you.) I'm not too sure about the technical legalities - maybe we should ask Gams - but as I understand it, dishonesty and charlantism aren't criminal acts (in and of themselves).
[snapback]118047[/snapback]
That's easier said than done... when the one that is accused has the best lawyers one can get always answering for him and the victims are left without any ressources... it is even worst than a typical rape by close friends and families... because the agressor not only was the center of their worlds and that they are hysteric about being cursed, but as well they're afraid of society and the way they will be viewed by others more than a rape by a member of the family... this is a very hard sentiment to discribe... those people are seen by society as vulnerable people that havn't listened to warnings and got into a sect... the society mentality is: "You didn't wanted to listen to us, now assume what happened."
then all of this evidence is nothing short of heresy
I disagree, if this were to be true, all the evidences that were not used during the Turkish military tribunal or the Permanent People Tribunal would be considered as "short of heresy." Beside that, like I said, "proving" something by using the standard "beyond any reasonable dought" does not require a tribunal. You witness someone having killed another, so as some others... tribunal or not, for you this "beyond any reasonable dought" is what you have seen... regardless of a tribunal decision. Tribunals are not bulet proof, they can make mistakes.
What I know is that there are many witnesses, ex-members, with their full names known, their terapists in some cases are known, in other cases the clinic where they had abortion being pregnant by Chinmoy(I think this reminds you something about a Guru here in Quebec).
I am really not confortable to have someone being defended on this board with the same standards used to deny the Armenian genocide. I am really not confortable with the way the victims are treated with the same standards as the Turks treat our victims. I am just using pure common sense... Photographers, artists, many witnesses, victims, with their names known, all concords, common sense tell me this is enough to be brageg as "beyond any reasonable dought." I don't care how the best lawyers of Chinmoy will twist the situation. OJ Simpson, from common sense was guilty... but this didn't changed anything to the fact that he was released.
I will expose the criminal that Chinmoy is, the raper he is, the manipulator he is, people can still claim that only courts "prove" this won't affect me... as I will bring as much evidences as needed to make people realise that the: "beyond reasonable dought" is achieved.
Here quoting from the article I have posted. This remind me someone.
The reporter from the Gazeta do Povo, talking with followers of Sri
Chinmoy and Sai Baba, noticed 3 reactions to accusations of sexual
abuse: the devotee doesn't believe they are true; doesn't even want
to hear the stories; or admits that the accusations are true, but
that the master being "one with the Divine", can do whatever he
likes, as his will is God's Will.
The professor at UFPR Victor Eduardo Silva Bento, doctor of
psychoanalysis for the University of Paris, explained that these
reactions correspond to the three psychic structures (make ups) of
Freudian man. According to Bento, the one saying "It's not possible
that it is true", is the neurotic; the one who doesn't want to hear
is psychotic; and the one who justifies the actions as the master's
right is perverse." The perverse is the one who tries to de-rail
reality. He admits that it is true, but a legitimate truth by another
law, the master is a god", he said. Sasun Oct 23 2004, 07:21 PM QUOTE An ex-devotee, who has been through various therapy sessions after
leaving the sect said she is recuperating form the trauma day by
day.
This is the person likely to have had hallucinations. Sasun Oct 23 2004, 07:24 PM I will answer anyone who is honest enough, talking to a self proclaimed internet judge with a definite agneda to trash an innocent man is a waste of time. Sasun Oct 23 2004, 07:30 PM QUOTE(vava @ Oct 23 2004, 01:22 AM) I'm not too sure about the technical legalities - maybe we should ask Gams - but as I understand it, dishonesty and charlantism aren't criminal acts (in and of themselves).
[snapback]118047[/snapback]
Even in that case, they should be able to prove.
On the other hand, things of spiritual/religious nature cannot be claimed as charlatanism. For example, someone says that he speaks with God, other's do not believe. He is unable to prove it to anyone, because this is not something that can be proved. This is neither dishonesty nor charlatanism. If that was the case, all religions would be accused of charlatanism. Christian religion maintains that Jesus did miracles and is the Son of God. Perhaps an internet zealot could accuse Christians of charlatanism? Sasun Oct 23 2004, 07:42 PM QUOTE Adriano discovered a forum of ex-followers on the Internet, which
carried testimonies that convinced him to leave. By the way, surfing
the web is also forbidden the disciples. "Chinmoy is a kind of Hitler
of the spiritual world. He got to the point of pressuring Yahoo to
dismantle the democratic forum set up by the Internet surfing ex-
disciples" stated the journalist.
Of course, a spiritual person has no right to protect his name against malicious slandering.
Domino Oct 23
2004, 08:02 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 23 2004, 07:21 PM) This is the
person likely to have had hallucinations.[snapback]118117[/snapback]
You got that wrong. Homeopathy seems to work, and there are medical literature showing it does... even thought there are only few molecules of the substances left in the medication... people praying, meditating or having faith live longer when fighting against Cancer. Placebo works etc... those are all phenomenon that are accetable by many scientists. I am not denying that for the one having faith he may observe something.
This does not mean that Chinmoy is responsable of anything here. Domino Oct 23 2004, 08:04 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 23 2004, 07:24 PM) I will answer anyone who is honest enough, talking to a self proclaimed internet judge with a definite agneda to trash an innocent man is a waste of time.
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Have you just asked yourself why I am trashing this man? For what reason I have specificaly decided to trash him and not another?
Jaspers was a Christian philosopher with a strong Faith... I never trash him because of his faith, on the contrary I believe him to be one of the best philosophers of the 20nt century. Domino Oct 23 2004, 08:06 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 23 2004, 07:30 PM) Even in that case, they should be able to prove.
On the other hand, things of spiritual/religious nature cannot be claimed as charlatanism. For example, someone says that he speaks with God, other's do not believe. He is unable to prove it to anyone, because this is not something that can be proved. This is neither dishonesty nor charlatanism. If that was the case, all religions would be accused of charlatanism. Christian religion maintains that Jesus did miracles and is the Son of God. Perhaps an internet zealot could accuse Christians of charlatanism?
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Exactly my point... you can neither "prove" or "disprove" faith... but it was one of your arguments to refer to some powers, or Jesus(your comparaison) to do just that. Domino Oct 23 2004, 08:11 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 23 2004, 07:42 PM) Of course, a spiritual person has no right to protect his name against malicious slandering.
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This could work both side... it depend on if either or not you believe he's innocent. I on the other hand can see that as an attemp against the UN convention of human rights and freedom of speech, as well as the supression of the victims freedom of speech.
No one has tried to shut Chinmoys sites or forums... no one has deleted pro-chinmoy posts in the ex-disciples forum... on the other hand, some anti-chinmoy sites were shut, many other treatened, when a victim post on their forum, their posts removed.
Beside that, why should I believe what is writen in Chinmoys forum. If Chinmoy forbidden disciples to surf the web, whom are those writting if not Chinmoys selected individuals? Sasun Oct 23 2004, 08:28 PM QUOTE(Domino @ Oct 23 2004, 10:11 PM) Beside that, why should I believe what is writen in Chinmoys forum.
Nobody has aver been accused or defamed on that forum, these are peaceful spiritual people minding their own business and not hurting anyone. You may choose to believe or not believe in what they say, but there is no reason at all to close that website.
QUOTE If Chinmoy forbidden disciples to surf the web, whom are those writting if not Chinmoys selected individuals?
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This is utter crap. Sri Chinmoy's disciples are not forbidden to surf the web, or fobidden to do anything they wish to do. I have seen with my own eyes disciples browsing the web. The only things that a disciple must do in order to remain a disciple are maintaining vegetarianism, abstinance from sex, smoking, alcohol, drugs, and attending weekly regular meditations in their respective centers, praying and meditating everyday at regular hours in their homes. These are required in ALL yoga paths, in every serious eastern spiritual practice these are required. That is why monks and nuns are celibate. If someone doesn't meet the requirements, they are asked to leave the path. Like it or not, this is it, it is not for fun.
The rest is hearsay... Sasun Oct 23 2004, 08:31 PM QUOTE(Domino @ Oct 23 2004, 10:04 PM) Have you just asked yourself why I am trashing this man? For what reason I have specificaly decided to trash him and not another?
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I don't know, you should ask yourself. Likewise, I don't know why Jesus was so cruelly executed while he had done no harm to anyone. Sip Oct 23 2004, 08:33 PM If you ask me, anyone who asks his followers to abstain from meat is a sick sick man and should burn in hell.
Edit: Oh yah and sex too but won't make much difference for me anyway unless by sex he doesn't just mean sex with other people.
Sasun Oct 23
2004, 08:38 PM For alleged abortion, there could be DNA tests.
For forged photo, let them show the original negative that was
forged. For death threats, let them produce any recorded tape, or
email (or a dead fish in the envelop?), some kind of evidence
that this happened. All accusations should be backed up by facts
- no facts, no proof.A person who is undergoing a psychological treatment may have had hallucinations under drug influence that she was raped, or may have been induced by anti-cultist "workers" to really believe that she was raped. I have read cases like that, where the person first told that she was abused by a "cult", then eventually confessed that it did not happen. Domino Oct 23 2004, 08:40 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 23 2004, 08:28 PM) Nobody has aver been accused or defamed on that forum, these are peaceful spiritual people minding their own business and not hurting anyone. You may choose to believe or not believe in what they say, but there is no reason at all to close that website.
This wasn't what I said. I said why should those accusing Chinmoy should get their posts deleted, while the free Chinmoy forum founded by ex-disciples permit pro-Chinmoy postings? Lets make an experiment, post one of the testimonies and see how long it will last.
QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 23 2004, 08:28 PM) This is utter crap. Sri Chinmoy's disciples are not forbidden to surf the web, or fobidden to do anything they wish to do. I have seen with my own eyes disciples browsing the web.
I have posted two refferences that say else... but let suppose that Sasun is better informed than an ex-disciple.
http://www.chinmoycult.com/
Would you claim that this site is not forbidden? Just to see how honnest you are.
QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 23 2004, 08:28 PM) The rest is hearsay...
Says who? Domino Oct 23 2004, 08:42 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 23 2004, 08:31 PM) I don't know, you should ask yourself. Likewise, I don't know why Jesus was so cruelly executed while he had done no harm to anyone.
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You use a Faith to support another one yet again.
Give me a rational reason explaining why out of billions of people I decided to attack Chinmoy. Domino Oct 23 2004, 08:46 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 23 2004, 08:38 PM) For alleged abortion, there could be DNA tests. For forged photo, let them show the original negative that was forged. For death threats, let them produce any recorded tape, or email (or a dead fish in the envelop?), some kind of evidence that this happened. All accusations should be backed up by facts - no facts, no proof.
This is stupid... Journalists have interviewed many abused people with real names,... one of the photograph is a famous painter internationaly known, I showed you how much results there is of his name in google... as for those having abortion... after the abortion... how could anyone ask for DNA test? Sip Oct 23 2004, 08:46 PM QUOTE(Domino @ Oct 23 2004, 08:42 PM) Give me a rational reason explaining why out of billions of people I decided to attack Chinmoy.
Cause you knew you were going to get one someone's nerves?
Domino Oct 23 2004,
08:47 PM QUOTE(Sip @ Oct 23 2004, 08:33 PM) If you ask me,
anyone who asks his followers to abstain from meat is a sick sick
man and should burn in hell.Edit: Oh yah and sex too but won't make much difference for me anyway unless by sex he doesn't just mean sex with other people.
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More so when there are witnesses having seen the one that ask to abstain eating meat himself or sex. Domino Oct 23 2004, 08:49 PM QUOTE(Sip @ Oct 23 2004, 08:46 PM) Cause you knew you were going to get one someone's nerves?
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You get out of here and go folding one WU.
Sasun Oct 23
2004, 08:52 PM QUOTE(Domino @ Oct 23 2004, 10:40 PM) I have
posted two refferences that say else... but let suppose that
Sasun is better informed than an ex-disciple.http://www.chinmoycult.com/
Would you claim that this site is not forbidden? Just to see how honnest you are.
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Why are you questioning my honesty? What do you mean forbidden? People live in their own homes and can do things privately. However, they are strongly advised not to associate with people hostile to their path (not that they would want to anyway), not to pick up fights with anyone, be it an ex-disciple or someone else making claims, etc... a yogi has to maintain a calm mindset in order to be able to concentrate and meditate, this is a generic rule true to all yaga paths. The site that you are mentioning falls in that category, therefore I am guessing it is quite possible they were advised not to visit such sites. But who can tell who vistis and who doesn't? It is not possible to forbid. Sasun Oct 23 2004, 08:56 PM QUOTE(Domino @ Oct 23 2004, 10:42 PM) You use a Faith to support another one yet again.
For me it is a fact.
QUOTE Give me a rational reason explaining why out of billions of people I decided to attack Chinmoy.
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I said I don't know, but maybe because you think that gurus, religious people are psychopaths. Domino Oct 23 2004, 09:02 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 23 2004, 08:52 PM) Why are you questioning my honesty? What do you mean forbidden? People live in their own homes and can do things privately. However, they are strongly advised not to associate with people hostile to their path (not that they would want to anyway), not to pick up fights with anyone, be it an ex-disciple or someone else making claims, etc... a yogi has to maintain a calm mindset in order to be able to concentrate and meditate, this is a generic rule true to all yaga paths. The site that you are mentioning falls in that category, therefore I am guessing it is quite possible they were advised not to visit such sites. But who can tell who vistis and who doesn't? It is not possible to forbid.
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OK now, why Chinmoy has attempted to close this site? Domino Oct 23 2004, 09:07 PM QUOTE(Sasun @ Oct 23 2004, 08:56 PM) For me it is a fact.
I said I don't know, but maybe because you think that gurus, religious people are psychopaths.
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For you, but it still is faith and you can't use a faith to support another one.
Oh and, why don't you use the same standards you ask others to use yourself so you won't accuse me with wrong informations. How do I think that religious people are psychopaths? Do you even know what a psychopath is? I think you are confusing psychotic with psychopath. But again, I do not consider religious people psychotic, but of course there may be psychotic religious person. As for Gurus, many are psychotics I'm afaid, many such cases of psychosis, that we may consider mild schizophrenia with less of what is known as "negative symptoms." But my conclusion is based on various cases. Sasun Oct 23 2004, 09:11 PM QUOTE(Domino @ Oct 23 2004, 11:02 PM) OK now, why Chinmoy has attempted to close this site?
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If a certain website published all kinds of lies that I am a rapist, issue death threats, defraud people of money, and other charges, I would be very upset and try to talk to the ISP and have the site closed. Having said this, that site is not closed, but some pages are missing, and it says "the info was not 100% accurate" therefore the pages were removed. This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.