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For Asking Questions
Today I was thinking that the two most
threatening words in the English language are
"why" and "not".
I was thinking of this when thinking
about the killings in Paris - ie the Charlie Hedbo
related killings. I was thinking what if a child was told
that you cannot make an image of their "god"
and the child said "why not?"
Or if the child was told, you have to obey your parents, and the child said,
"why?"
So then I thought of this idea of being
punsished for asking questions and I searched it and I
found this page from a forum....
I have a note at the bottom of the page.
S.Hein
from www.ex-christian.net
forum
Were You Ever Punished For Asking Questions?
Started by R. S. Martin , Nov 28 2006 03:51 PM
25 replies to this topic
#1 R. S. Martin
I do my own thinking
Senior Member
9,040 posts
Gender:Not Telling
Location:Ontario, Canada
Interests:learning why people believe what they do and
normal stuff like birds, dogs and music
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I have yet to
see the evidence
Posted 28 November 2006 - 03:51 PM
Sometimes it seems like I was purposely kept in the dark,
blind-folded, and every time I tried peeking around the
blind-fold I'd get clobbered over the head until I just
gave up and submitted again. This was not physically but
emotionally and intellectually. It feels so hopeless when
I'm not allowed to understand what is happening to me and
to know why they are doing it, but I'm forced to submit
and obey. I get condemned if I don't.
It feels like maybe I did something to deserve it, such
as being too stupid to deserve answers. Or maybe I was
too nosey. I tried really, really hard not to ask things
that weren't my business. But it seems it was more that I
was too stupid (in their minds) than too nosey. Asking
questions about the things I don't know seems a logical
approach to learning. It made no sense that I got
punished so severely for asking.
But my mother hated, Hated, HATED my questions. She HATED
them with a vengeance. I was not allowed to understand.
However, I was forced to obey, not accepting the religion
was not an option if I wanted them to like me even a tiny
little bit. In other words, I was forced to lie, to say
"I believe" things that did not make sense to
me so it was impossible to believe. But I had to do it
anyway. I had to lie so they would like me. I think
something died inside of me and it's just starting to
come alive again.
I'm sorry if I talk too much about these things. It seems
the only way to heal is to talk about them over and over.
I'm not even trying for their love anymore. All I'm
trying for is to heal and become a whole person like I
was before these troubles started.
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#2 Dave
Iconoclast
Regular Member
2,222 posts
Location:The Sierra Nevada
Interests:Science.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :None what so
ever !
Posted 28 November 2006 - 05:26 PM
I was kicked out of catholic school, in the second grade,
for asking questions. Even then I was an Atheist and
didn't believe any of the stories they were trying to
force on me.
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#3 truth
Thinker
Regular Member
165 posts
Location:Canada
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Yes...at least
I think so most days
Posted 28 November 2006 - 05:35 PM
RubySera,
I am sorry you were treated so badly. I was always given
the token answer and for the most part this satisfied me,
I mean if my family and pastors were saying this was so
it must be right..right..NOT..
Am glad you found your way out, and from what I was
taught also asking questions were good.
And Dave, what did you parents say or do when you got
kicked out of catholic school at such a young age? For
asking questions? Wow. I am so glad I managed to escape
going to religious school.
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#4 Piprus
Curmudgeon
Senior Member
1,142 posts
Location:Baltimore MD
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :No, if I need
one I'll make one up
Posted 28 November 2006 - 06:20 PM
I cannot ever recall either of my parents saying
something like "you ask too many questions".
In regard to issues that were religious or spiritual,
questioning was encouraged. But when it came to issues of
routine, everyday tasks or chores, any response to
questioning was often met with "because I said
so". I came to just regard that as parenting, and
expecting a child to follow everyday expectations, and
doing what I was told.
In the end, I think things came into balance.
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#5 I Broke Free
Turning 50 in Hawaii with hubby
? Silver Patron ?
2,536 posts
Gender:Male
Location:New Hampshire, USA
Interests:Maps, Geography, Astronomy, PBS Science
Programming
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :What a silly
question. Why, have you seen any?
Posted 28 November 2006 - 06:32 PM
I know where you are coming from Ruby, at least to some
extent.
While my mother was not big on attending church, she knew
everything about the bible and how to interpret every
part of it; a pretty good accomplishment for someone I
never actually saw reading the damned thing.
My mother HATED it when I would question her beliefs and
try to interject a different perspective. As far as she
was concerned it was her job to make my brain an exact
copy of hers, any deviation meant that she had failed
somehow. To her dying day I put on fake mask whenever I
was around her. The only ways to maintain any kind of
relationship with her was to LIE to her and give her the
answers she wanted.
She never knew me at all. It some respects I think she
realized that but did not care. Like many xtians the mask
is more important than the person underneath.
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#6 D Laurier
Strong Minded
Regular Member
206 posts
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :music
Posted 28 November 2006 - 06:58 PM
Yes, Constantly,
As a child growing up in government institutions,
(dumping grounds for unwanted children).
I was punished with physical (and sexual) violence for
even asking to go to the bathroom.
As an adult, I was punished for asking WHY? . This has
been my experience.
And the violence of my frequent controlers/masters, has
always been especialy savage when I have asked questions.
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#7 R. S. Martin
I do my own thinking
Senior Member
9,040 posts
Gender:Not Telling
Location:Ontario, Canada
Interests:learning why people believe what they do and
normal stuff like birds, dogs and music
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I have yet to
see the evidence
Posted 28 November 2006 - 07:19 PM
truth, on Nov 28 2006, 05:35 PM, said:
RubySera,
I am sorry you were treated so badly. I was always given
the token answer and for the most part this satisfied me,
I mean if my family and pastors were saying this was so
it must be right..right..NOT..
Unfortunately for me, that did not satisfy me in the
least. It had to make sense and it didn't. Thus, the
answers more often than not only stimulated more urgent
questions. That's when they would refuse answers. When I
got older and refused to accept this refusal I was
accused of not having enough faith.
Thanks for your note of sympathy. I think that was the
single greatest abuse I suffered. It seems so harmless
yet is so oppressive.
Quote
Dave said:
I was kicked out of catholic school, in the second grade,
for asking questions. Even then I was an Atheist and
didn't believe any of the stories they were trying to
force on me.
If the consequences had not been so horrendous I would
probably have stood up for my atheism in second grade,
too. It was about that time when I was told that Jesus
died so we could get to heaven and it made absolutely no
sense. That is the lie I had to profess to believe when I
was 17 so I could join church. And joining church was
necessary if I wanted people to keep on liking me. I
mean, if I had not joined like the obedient girl I was
supposed to be, the social pressure and guilt trips would
have been huge. Then the "sin" and
"lost" accusations would have started for real.
Quote
Piprus said:
But when it came to issues of routine, everyday tasks or
chores, any response to questioning was often met with
"because I said so". I came to just regard that
as parenting, and expecting a child to follow everyday
expectations, and doing what I was told.
I got the same. But that was different. Sometimes, years
later, I could figure out why my parents wanted things
done that way. It's the religious thing that was such a
huge issue.
I Broke Free, on Nov 28 2006, 06:32 PM, said:
I know where you are coming from Ruby, at least to some
extent.
While my mother was not big on attending church, she knew
everything about the bible and how to interpret every
part of it; a pretty good accomplishment for someone I
never actually saw reading the damned thing.
My mother HATED it when I would question her beliefs and
try to interject a different perspective. As far as she
was concerned it was her job to make my brain an exact
copy of hers, any deviation meant that she had failed
somehow. To her dying day I put on fake mask whenever I
was around her. The only ways to maintain any kind of
relationship with her was to LIE to her and give her the
answers she wanted.
She never knew me at all. It some respects I think she
realized that but did not care. Like many xtians the mask
is more important than the person underneath.
You know what, Broke Free, this gives me an idea. She
probably hadn't a clue what was in the Bible or what it
meant. But she could not afford not knowing so she
attacked you instead. I wonder if that is what happened
in my case, too. Because I seldom saw my mother reading
the Bible until after I did a lot of Bible reading.
When I was younger she was always telling me we do such
and such because the Bible says to do it. Maybe that is
what stimulated my interest in the Bible. Funny thing
was, I never found the stuff she said the Bible said. So
I guess it would make sense that our mothers treated us
like they did. Still doesn't make it right but at least
it makes sense in a wierd sort of way. Yes! you're right
on about mom not knowing me or wanting to know me. Okay,
you were talking about yourself but that fits me, too.
Only she used to pretend she knew me inside out. That was
abusive, too, but I think I dealt with that some years
ago via self-help books because it's not big for me
anymore. It's just the way things are.
Thanks for sharing. There's nothing like knowing another
person who went through the same thing and really
understands.
D Laurier, on Nov 28 2006, 06:58 PM, said:
Yes, Constantly,
As a child growing up in government institutions,
(dumping grounds for unwanted children).
I was punished with physical (and sexual) violence for
even asking to go to the bathroom.
As an adult, I was punished for asking WHY? . This has
been my experience.
And the violence of my frequent controlers/masters, has
always been especialy savage when I have asked questions.
Wow! That sounds even worse than my situation. I hope you
have been able to escape that abusive situation by now.
That is disrespecting basic human rights.
0
#8 Dave
Iconoclast
Regular Member
2,222 posts
Location:The Sierra Nevada
Interests:Science.
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :None what so
ever !
Posted 28 November 2006 - 07:40 PM
truth, on Nov 28 2006, 05:35 PM, said:
And Dave, what did you parents say or do when you got
kicked out of catholic school at such a young age? For
asking questions? Wow. I am so glad I managed to escape
going to religious school.
I don't remember my mother saying anything. She had a
talk with the priest I got into an argument with on
Friday and the next Monday I was in public school. My
grades improved too.
The old Catholic bible had several chapters on jesus as a
child. One thing he did was stretch a board that his
"father", Joseph, had cut too short. I remember
arguing that he could not do that. No one could do that.
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#9 dexys midnight runner
Curious
New Member
9 posts
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Not Sure
Posted 29 November 2006 - 01:04 AM
I have almost read the entire bible this year and had
tons of questions. I have been told that I think too
much!! After I told my wife I thought genesis was all
myth (garden of eden, noah's ark, tower of babel, etc..),
she gave me several booklets of information from answers
in genesis. I looked at them but couldn't believe any of
what it had to say. I haven't told my family or friends
yet of my non belief and don't know if I'm ready yet to
face the consequences. But I know that day will come
soon. It's getting harder to pretend.
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#10 MeiPassion
Doubter
Regular Member
72 posts
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Deist
Posted 29 November 2006 - 02:04 AM
Hey, Ruby sorry you had to go through that. I have
nothing but sympathy for you.
Anyways, I was never punished for asking questions.
However, I could sense annoyance from my mother and other
members from my former church. The answer I would usually
get was, "read the bible," but reading the
bible only made me ask more questions. I ask simple
questions like, "why was it okay for the servents to
throw Jezabel out the window just because she slept with
many men and worshiped pagan gods?" I mean, I didn't
understand why this woman is considered to be
"evil." Especially when no one took the time to
tell me what "evil" is.
To be honest, I never really believed what being fed to
when I was Christian, it was more like accepting it.
Have you ever recieved the "ask God" resposne,
Ruby?
Edited by MeiPassion, 29 November 2006 - 02:04 AM.
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#11 R. S. Martin
I do my own thinking
Senior Member
9,040 posts
Gender:Not Telling
Location:Ontario, Canada
Interests:learning why people believe what they do and
normal stuff like birds, dogs and music
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I have yet to
see the evidence
Posted 29 November 2006 - 04:24 AM
MeiPassion, on Nov 29 2006, 02:04 AM, said:
Hey, Ruby sorry you had to go through that. I have
nothing but sympathy for you.
Anyways, I was never punished for asking questions.
However, I could sense annoyance from my mother and other
members from my former church. The answer I would usually
get was, "read the bible," but reading the
bible only made me ask more questions. I ask simple
questions like, "why was it okay for the servents to
throw Jezabel out the window just because she slept with
many men and worshiped pagan gods?" I mean, I didn't
understand why this woman is considered to be
"evil." Especially when no one took the time to
tell me what "evil" is.
To be honest, I never really believed what being fed to
when I was Christian, it was more like accepting it.
Have you ever recieved the "ask God" resposne,
Ruby?
Perhaps once, in a church I didn't go to all that long.
And I thought it was stupid. I had already done my
praying. Since God didn't answer I figured the Christians
who had all the answers should be able to. Why do they
profess to have all the answers if they refuse to answer
our simple questions?
Passion, it sure feels good to know another woman (maybe
I'm wrong; I am assuming you are a woman) is asking this
kind of "simple" question. It's probably
complicated because you don't accept the worship of pagan
gods and sleeping with many men as evil. Throwing her out
the window certainly is violent now that you draw my
attention to it.It's just one more of those things I had
to accept. I like the way you differentiate between
believing and accepting. But yeah, it's an evil sin to
condemn people for being evil and sinful if these same
people (you and me) and forbidden to know what evil and
sin mean. A definition for sin was one of my hang-ups.
Thanks for speaking up.
Dexy, welcome. You must be new. I never saw your name
before. Stick around. Read some more testimonies. You're
not the first and only person who deconverts and then has
to find a way to tell spouse, children, parents, or
whoever is closest kin.
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#12 AKR
Skeptic
Regular Member
457 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Alaska
Interests:Music, Snowboarding, photography, film
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Suck it
Posted 29 November 2006 - 07:01 AM
RubySera, on Nov 28 2006, 03:51 PM, said:
I'm sorry if I talk too much about these things. It seems
the only way to heal is to talk about them over and over.
I'm not even trying for their love anymore. All I'm
trying for is to heal and become a whole person like I
was before these troubles started.
don't apologize. we're all here for the same thing.
i was never punished. i think the only person i ever
asked was my mom, and she would just say things like,
"i don't know; you can ask god when you get to
heaven." no answers, but no punishment either.
0
#13 Amelia
Thinker
Regular Member
105 posts
Location:Australia
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :Don't know
Posted 29 November 2006 - 08:47 AM
RubySera, on Nov 29 2006, 07:51 AM, said:
But my mother hated, Hated, HATED my questions. She HATED
them with a vengeance. I was not allowed to understand.
However, I was forced to obey, not accepting the religion
was not an option if I wanted them to like me even a tiny
little bit. In other words, I was forced to lie, to say
"I believe" things that did not make sense to
me so it was impossible to believe. But I had to do it
anyway. I had to lie so they would like me. I think
something died inside of me and it's just starting to
come alive again.
Hey Ruby,
Yes, whenever I challenged the bible or Christianity, my
father would get mad at me.
It's okay to talk about all of these issues, even if you
might have done so before. It's a hard thing dealing with
all this shit.
Cheers,
Amelia
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#14 LostOrFound
Thinker
Regular Member
172 posts
Location:FL
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :None
Posted 29 November 2006 - 08:57 AM
I was "cautioned" by a couple of more tolerant
professors (in Bible College and again in Seminary) that
my questions were being viewed as a lack of faith by
other profs and that there had even been discussions of
expelling me from both. I learned to phrase my questions
in more acceptable terms in order to get by.
0
#15 Poonis
Born-Again Heathen
Atheist
807 posts
Location:Minneapolis, MN
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :no
Posted 29 November 2006 - 12:18 PM
I remember once being scolded by my fundy mother for
saying something rather mundane. About the time the movie
'Twister' came out, a character referred to an F5 as
"the finger of god". I reiterated this phrase
in the midst of my mother during a particularily unruly
storm we were having that night. She said, "don't
you EVER say that again, do you understand!?" I must
have apparently offended her god.
I chuckle about it now, but as a teenage mind-control
bot, she certainly scared me then.
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#16 R. S. Martin
I do my own thinking
Senior Member
9,040 posts
Gender:Not Telling
Location:Ontario, Canada
Interests:learning why people believe what they do and
normal stuff like birds, dogs and music
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I have yet to
see the evidence
Posted 29 November 2006 - 06:49 PM
Amelia, on Nov 29 2006, 08:47 AM, said:
Hey Ruby,
Yes, whenever I challenged the bible or Christianity, my
father would get mad at me.
It's okay to talk about all of these issues, even if you
might have done so before. It's a hard thing dealing with
all this shit.
Cheers,
Amelia
Amelia,
Thanks! I know you understand. I remember your horror
story about being a pastor's kid and the hell your dad
put you through.
Quote
LostOrFound said:
I was "cautioned" by a couple of more tolerant
professors (in Bible College and again in Seminary) that
my questions were being viewed as a lack of faith by
other profs and that there had even been discussions of
expelling me from both. I learned to phrase my questions
in more acceptable terms in order to get by.
Wow! That sends the shudders up my spine. I'm so GLAD I'm
in a much more tolerant seminary. It's okay telling my
profs that I don't hold to Christian theology. Since my
final stage of deconversion in Sept. (if there is such a
thing as "final stage") I felt a need to tell
them in order to avoid embarrassing situations in front
of the class. A few of my classmates know, too. Here you
can see what kind of question I got away with today.
0
#17 D Laurier
Strong Minded
Regular Member
206 posts
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :music
Posted 01 December 2006 - 03:43 AM
Thankyou Ruby, I'm all growen up (40 years old this past
summer). And in therepy,
(recently learned how to play with crayons),
I'm in a good situation. I live in a clean, safe,
apartment. I have a low paying, but enjoyable job working
at a chain resturant.
I enjoy life.
0
#18 R. S. Martin
I do my own thinking
Senior Member
9,040 posts
Gender:Not Telling
Location:Ontario, Canada
Interests:learning why people believe what they do and
normal stuff like birds, dogs and music
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I have yet to
see the evidence
Posted 02 December 2006 - 01:14 AM
D Laurier, on Dec 1 2006, 03:43 AM, said:
Thankyou Ruby, I'm all growen up (40 years old this past
summer). And in therepy,
(recently learned how to play with crayons),
I'm in a good situation. I live in a clean, safe,
apartment. I have a low paying, but enjoyable job working
at a chain resturant.
I enjoy life.
I am so glad. There is perhaps nothing more encouraging
to read than the success stories of people who come out
of severely abusive situations and turn out well despite
the horrible up-bringing. You sound like one of those.
All the best to you.
0
#19 Pegasus_Voyager
Doubter
Regular Member
82 posts
Location:Indiana
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :The
Posted 02 December 2006 - 03:58 AM
As I read through all these horror stories, I can only
conclude one thing: That any religion, ideology, or
paradigm whatsoever that refuses to allow and field
direct, forthright questions, its veracity must be held
suspect. Another reason why adherents of this intolerant
thinking must be kept from the helm of government.
0
#20 R. S. Martin
I do my own thinking
Senior Member
9,040 posts
Gender:Not Telling
Location:Ontario, Canada
Interests:learning why people believe what they do and
normal stuff like birds, dogs and music
Still have any Gods? If so, who or what? :I have yet to
see the evidence
Posted 02 December 2006 - 03:52 PM
Pegasus_Voyager, on Dec 2 2006, 03:58 AM, said:
As I read through all these horror stories, I can only
conclude one thing: That any religion, ideology, or
paradigm whatsoever that refuses to allow and field
direct, forthright questions, its veracity must be held
suspect. Another reason why adherents of this intolerant
thinking must be kept from the helm of government.
Agreed! Thanks for your feedback.
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