: ok so i guess we could start with the first page, and talk about that
Morgan: The first page is talking about celebrating your "dash" and your"muckups"
Morgan: I guess if you can get something postive out of a mistake then thats good.
p: yeah
p: just a sec... im gonna finish reading thru the page
p: but u can keep writing what u think of it, if u want
Morgan: I guess it is better to learn instead of hating yourself.
Morgan: Use your "muckups" to learn from.
p: yeah i agree with the idea that it can help you feel better to learn something helpful from a bad situation
Morgan: Yeah.
p: im not too sure about using the word "celebrate" for that though
p: especially when it comes to "muckingup"
Morgan: lol
p: celebrating sounds a little exaggerated to me
p: lol yeah
Morgan: [lol]
Morgan: Its talking about hearing the need behind what someone's saying.
p: "It’s possible to re-interpret everything I don’t like in this 'dash'. "
p: i was gonna say that i dont really like this whole idea too much
Morgan: It doesn't quite seem right.
p: like saying "its possible to think away all the bad things in my life"
Morgan: yeah
p: you know about cognitive therapies?
Morgan: A little bit.
p: they basically say, if you change your beliefs/interpretation about something, you can make it into a positive thing
p: i think there's some truth in that, but generally i dont like the whole cognitive thing because
Morgan: me neither.
p: its basically saying that you can everything positive as long as you change yourself
p: which is the opposite of changing your environment/society
p: basically they say that nothing is really ever objectively "bad"
Morgan: think away the bad stuff.
p: yeah, that's what i dont like
p: so that's why i dont like re-interpreting part I mentioned
Morgan: yes
Morgan: [frown]
p: Also I'm not sure about the word "gratitude"
Morgan: me neither
p: what do u think about the word gratitude?
p: id like to know before i say what i think. lol.
Morgan: I believe it means that your thankful for something.
p: yeah i thought about the word thankful too
p: what i thought was that when you feel "grateful" it is usually when you're grateful TO someone
p: so it just kind of reminds me of something a religious person might say
p: like, i was thinking, "grateful" to whom?
Morgan: To whom indeed?
p: idk, maybe its kind of subtle
p: but i could see how someone might say "gratitude towards god" or something like that
p: Im not sure i would say "grateful" or "gratitude" about learning from my mistakes
p: i might say something like i feel encouraged that i can at least learn from my mistakes
Morgan: yeah
p: ok last thing i wanted to point out about this page...
p: "2. » celebration of what we did that brought us pain"
p: what do u think about that?
Morgan: Ouch!
p: lol
Morgan: lol
s joined the chat
Morgan: Yeah I don't want to just think problems away.
p: im not too sure the evolutionary purpose of pain is for it to be celebrated
p: yeah exactly
p: i think its also too cognitive
p: what i was thinking was, he's going too fast trying to change the bad into the good
Morgan: yeah exactly
Morgan: So do you want move on to the next page?
p: I think NVC kind of tries to get too positive without getting the intended benefit from negative feelings
p: i could just see like a suicidal teenager in a lot of pain trying to force themselves to be grateful
p: i mean it could kind of help after a while, when you're ready to kind of learn your lesson from it, but at the beginning im not sure it's anyone's natural tendency to celebrate their pain
p: I'm afraid i might be talking too much/taking over....
Morgan: Yes. Also is there a limit to what pain to "celebrate"? Should I celebrate triping over a cord and landing on my face?
p: plz let me know if u want to slow down, or go back to a point, or move on... etc
p: haha
p: yeah, should be trying to "re-interpret" that?
p: "maybe I didnt fall on my face. maybe i was subciousciouly trying to learn a lesson about balance and walking over cords"
Morgan: Interesting question.
p: lol
Morgan: I say.................. no
p: you could even say that it's even worse if you're trying to reinterpret into something positive
p: like it's kind of off-base with reality or something
Morgan: lol
p: ok i guess im done talking about that page...
Morgan: k
Morgan: page two
p: what about u?
p: ok
xx
p: what about u?
p: ok
p: im gonna read it kind of quick, but i can write ur comments about it if u want while im doing that...
Morgan: Its talking about silence, not expressing your feeling. It says the more you try to stop the other person from freaking out. The more you become a nice dead person.
p: I'm not sure i get that
Morgan: lol
p: i dont know what he means by a "nice dead person"
p: why would u become that from trying to stop someone from freaking out?
p: *confused
Morgan: I guess he means your allowing yourself to died for the sake of being nice.
Morgan: Now he's going back on about not hearing what you don't want.
Morgan: More think it away.
Morgan: [angry]
Morgan: Enjoy the way the person reacts? hmmm.... So should I enjoy it when a person screams in the my face?
p: haha
p: good point
p: that's exactly what steve and i thought too
p: actually we were thinking its' kind of sadistic
p: because i think that's exactly what he's suggesting
Morgan: Perhabs I should "enjoy it" if they pull a knife out and stab me with it.....
p: that you should enjoy whatever reaction you get, regardless of how negative it is
p: lol yeah that wouldnt exactly work very well huh?
p: Yeah i think what he's saying is like
p: "as long as you're speaking in NVC language (ie. in 'harmony' with ur beliefs) it doesnt matter what the other person says
p: because you've done all you were supposed to do
p: He even says "Our ONLY job is to make sure we keep our Giraffe ears on."
Morgan: ? Should we cut off a giraffe's ears and sew them on our heads?
p: ha ha
Morgan: Then sleep forever.
p: yeah that's a nother thing
p: they do this whole talking in weird terminology thing
p: that cults do
p: like their whole "giraffe" thing
Morgan: Now its going on with the whole think everything better thing.
p: regular pple dont know what that means, so it's like how cults use all these inside words
p: which part?
Morgan: ALL OF IT!
Morgan: lol
p: ha ha yeah really
p: i was thinking especially this part...
p: when he says things are only a problem "when you interpret No as rejection, then the problem is not in the response but in how you receive it."
p: that is way too cognitive
p: i could see an NVC blaming someone for their feeling rejected. "Well you're not feeling rejected because you asked me out and i said 'No'. You're feeling rejected because that's how you perceived it"
Morgan: Yeah. How far do we take this "think it better"? You get stabbed in the back? Think it better! Your friends kills himself? Think it better! A meteor falls on your house? Think it better!


Morgan: ...............I don't think so.
p: i can imagine suggesting someone 'reinterpret' their guilty feelings when their son kills himself or something
p: then you dont really learn anything from the negative sitatuion
Morgan: [frown]
p: and you dont accept responsibily for having helped create the feelings
p: like if you say "no" to someone, and they feel rejected, it IS at least partly directly because you said no
p: this part about
p: "we never have to fear the other person’s reaction"
p: is kind of invalidating, i would say
Morgan: Yeah. Well now he's talking about not feeling responsible if someone beats you up. Finally a good idea.
p: like telling someone they shouldn't feel afraid of someone's reaction
p: hmm
p: where is that?
Morgan: Its on the right side of the page.
p: can u get the quote?
Morgan: There is a lot of beating up going on around the world, so I’ve had a lot of experience. At the least, teaching a woman to have a Giraffe response to having been beaten up requires that she learn not to take responsibility and think she somehow deserved it. There’s evidence that when children and wives can be trained to give empathy, there is less chance of getting hurt. Of course, it would be better to be working with the men. The middle stage of this learning is when the person gets obnoxious, it’s when they say "that’s your problem, not mine." That’s cause for celebration because at least the person no longer feels responsible and isn’t being an emotional slave or having to deny her feelings and needs.
Morgan: So yeah.
Morgan: Finally a good idea.
Morgan: [smile]
p: yeah i could see how that would be helpful
p: when you're getting abused by someone, if you take less responsiblity for their feelings
p: i like this part too:
Morgan: And now for more think it better. :/
p: "Remember that whatever anyone does, it is an effort to meet a need. "
p: oh... where?
Morgan: Everywhere in this document.
p: lol it does seem like a recurring thing throughout it
p: it think maybe its because NVC is based not so much on nature, and looking at the evolutionary value of feelings
Morgan: Do you want to go down to page three?
p: so they think your feelings are simply created by your thoughts
Morgan: yep
p: so its a good thing to try to think them (the negative ones) away
Morgan: yep
p: ok, i just have one more thing to say about this page...
Morgan: ?
p: " Say, "I’d like to think you’d like the meeting that I do. When you don’t respond, I stand there feeling bare and lonely." "
Morgan: hmmm
p: thats what marshall said you should say if someone is silent with you, and not telling u how they feel
p: steve and i thought that was kind of a guilt trip
Morgan: guilt trip for sure
p: like saying "bare and lonely" is unnecessrily emotive
p: like... idk
p: kind of dramatic and not really saying how he really feels
p: i doubt "lonely" would be the feeling that he would feel is someone is silent about their feelings
p: it is more like maybe insecure and afraid that the person didnt like their meeting or whatever
p: and the word "bare" doesnt really say very much. i think its just a guilt trip basically
Morgan: Yeah. And whats with all the "think it better" is he trying to get it on to a t-shirt?
p: especially with saying he "stands there" feeling bare and lonely
p: that part is just unnecessary, and just makes him sound more pitiful or something, and worthy of sympathy... so just more likely to make someone feel guilty
p: lol

p: "Not getting our needs fulfilled is painful — but it’s a sweet pain, not suffering, which is what comes from life-alienated thinking and interpretation"
p: He probably wants this in a t-shirt. That's very "think it better"


p: sweet pain????
Morgan: Yeah I think he's trying it get it on a t-shirt.
p: so he's saying 'real pain' and suffering doesn't TRULY come from unmet needs, but it comes from your "life-alienated" thinking and interpretation
p: how the hell is not getting your needs met a *sweet* pain??
p: its very convenient for abusive parents and teachers, etc
p: because then they can minimize the importance of meeting the emotional needs of their kids
Morgan: What the hell is "sweet pain" Is it the pain of having sugar push into your brain?
p: it's a sweet pain after all
p: lol
p: yeah good point. he doesnt explain what he means by that at all
p: he just implies your percpetion and thoughts matter more than your needs being deprived
p: but i bet if you were hungry (unmet need), no matter how much positive thinking you practiced, it wouldnt make the pain of hunger go away
p: anyway... i guess im done there. if u want to move on to page 3
Morgan: ok
Morgan: reading page three
p: yeah me too....
Morgan: Its..... now talking about... Screaming in Giraffe?
p: yeah :/ im confused about that too
p: it seems kind of self contradictory
p: since giraffe is supposed to be nice and non-violent
p: but i guess he means how to be assertive or something like that
p: i guess. but im not sure.
Morgan: If you need to scream, why not scream in human?
p: lol
p: it doesnt make much sense when u try to think literally huh?
p: that's something that bothers me. it's all really metaphorical
p: and confusing
p: brb...
Morgan: Why not talk, listen and think in human too? Get rid of all this "jackal and giraffe"
Morgan: Now its talking about the difference between self-full, selfish and self-less. I agree that society focus too much too much on being self-less.
p: yeah
p: i dont think i like him using the word selfish, but i guess he's kind of implying that its not "selfish" to have needs
Morgan: Oh your back.
p: yeah sorry
p: back
p: i dont know about "self full"...
p: is that a real word?
Morgan: I'll check.
p: it seems kind of making things too complicated... and making up a lot of words
p: "Anything you give that isn’t for totally Self-full reasons, the other person will pay for, all that loving care will cost the other person if it’s not given from a Self-full place"
Morgan: Yeah..
Morgan: "One of our most precious and fun needs is to contribute to and enrich life. There’s nothing we enjoy more than that kind of giving. The other person will not have to pay for that. We’re not doing that for them, but for ourselves. So how you feel about giving is your first clue, don’t give with guilt, resentment, etc."
p: i guess that means you have have to do things for other pple primarily because it meets your own needs, which i kind of agree with.
p: yeah like saying it's ok to be nice to pple because it makes u feel good
p: that u dont have to do it for 'selfless' reasons
Morgan: Yeah I can agree with that.
p: and that it's not healthy to be motivated by guilt, or feeling obligated to do help someone
p: so yeah, i can agree with all that pretty well i guess
Morgan: Yeah that is a good idea.
p: "This entails never doing things for others, only things to meet our own needs"
Morgan: O_O
p: hmm im not sure what he means by that
Morgan: O_o
p: it sounds kind of bad but maybe he's saying dont do things for someone if it doesnt help you somehow too
p: but theoretically if u love someone, u want them to be happy, regardless of how that makes u feel, or whether or not it fills your needs
Morgan: yeah.
p: so im not quite sure about that
p: i guess you could argue that seeing them happy is somehow a need of yours
p: but im not sure what emotional need that would be exactly
p: i dunno...
p: well im kind of getting a bit tired and my battery is running low
p: how ok is it if we continue this later?
Morgan: 10
p: ok thanks
p: how r u feeling right now?
p: or how did u feel about doing all this, that we've been doing?
Morgan: I enjoyed it.
p: yay thats good
Morgan: [smile]
p: im a bit worried we might never get thru it all, since theres still like 30 something pages left. lol
p: it's taking longer than i thought
Morgan: It is taking a little while.
p: i guess we could always like take separate notes offline and then send them to each other.
p: like, if we really just want to finish it quick
p: but for now I'm ok with chatting again like we were doing
p: what do u think?
Morgan: I like chatting better.
p: yeah
p: it's more interesting/stimulating for me too